#tlj critical

[antianakin]

The options for TLJ are as follows.

Luke is intended to be wrong about everything he says and the message is that the Jedi are and always were fundamentally good, but he still spends two hours shitting all over a culture that's been completely genocided for decades because he feels guilty about how he invaded his own nephew's mind while he was sleeping and then wanted to kill him for a moment because of how dark said nephew's mind was.

Luke is intended to be RIGHT about the Jedi and he failed specifically because he repeated their mistakes, but he's wrong to have lost hope entirely and realizes by the end that Rey can become a "new source" of light that will only succeed because she'll be different from the old Jedi.

So the options here are either that Luke was character assassinated in such a dramatic way that it's impossible to really pick up on the real message of the movie, or that Luke's storyline WAS intended to be Jedi critical the entire time. Both options suck. Both options completely sidelined Rey in her own story and made her character completely flat and pointless.

I'm sorry, but you cannot convince me that this movie was good or had anything kind to say about the Jedi since it spent the MAJORITY of its runtime talking about how awful the Jedi are and blaming them for everything that's gone wrong in the galaxy, turning one of the most beloved Jedi in the entire franchise into a mean spirited mouthpiece.

[thehollowprince]

I know I've talked about this before, but I absolutely loathe how the character of Finn was treated in this movie. Not only the redundancy of his plot, but the sheer laziness of it.

[thatfantasylovingdork]

Thirty year olds are adults. Treat them like they are. They are responsible for their own actions. Stop infantilizing grown men and treat them like they are actually people who have responsibilities and suffer the consequences of their bad decisions.

“We can all relate to Kylo; to that anger of being in the turmoil of adolescence and figuring out who he’s going to be as a man; dealing with anger and wanting to separate from his family.” rian he’s 30 

[mythalism]

When playing veilguard I though I sort of liked it while playing, maybe a 6/10. But the longer it's been the more I actively dislike it? I don't even really know why exactly but there was barely anything memorable. It's just fodder to me. No replay value at all. I've put over 300 hours in it trying to make the game different but even without the da keep it's just so limiting. Nothing matters. Looking back on it I'd have to adjust my score to a 3/10. Doesn't help that I find Rook the most insufferable protag I ever had the displeasure of playing as. What a shallow unfunny child. I don't I'll ever play a new bioware game again.

agreed instead of marinating in my brain like a juicy, complexly flavored steak (or tofu) that truly ripens and deepens with time, it has rotted and soured the longer it sits. the artbook showing us what could have been didnt help

[sjbattleangel]

Me whenever hacks like Lily Orchard go after Steven Universe, She-Ra, The Owl House, The Legend Of Korra, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Sailor Moon, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Moon Girl, Star Wars, Dungeon Meshi, ect.

(P.S: I am a massive fan of the media mentioned above) (P.S: Yes. I will fight to the end defending Steven Universe, She-Ra, The Owl House, Utena, Evangelion, Sailor Moon and The Last Jedi.)

[lilyvalerieorchard]

Lily Orchard, if you're reading this: The Last Jedi is 1000000x better then your crappy fanfiction The Sith Resurgence. Rose Tico is far, far greater character then your fascist Sith waifu Darth Amorosa. Heck, even Astarion, N and Hunter combined are superior to Darth Amorosa.

[lesbian4lqg]

one thing we dont talk about enough is tianlang jun calling out shen qingqiu for knowing his was around the holy mausoleum

like the "bullseye" thing? crazy

sqq literally swaggered in there and kinda beat tlj on his own turf that he should have known nothing about and tlj is the only (living) character that really knows it, and as far as we know he never bothers to snitch!

hes just. tlj about it. like hes just like "wow thats crazy haha sqq is so cool"

to me it feels like one of sqq's biggest weak spots in his not-so-secret identity bc just about everything else can be explained by the usual "it was,,,,, a qi deviation" bs but like. how tf would he know his way around the holy mausoleum. nobody knows their way around the holy mausoleum thats kind of like the whole point

[soup-for-lorch]

Liliy! Rose Tico and Princess Leia (from a timewarp) have made you more wonderful soup! Don't worry, there's plenty for Darth Amorosa!

[thehollowprince]

It's just the sheer audacity for me.

The fact that Finn, the former child soldier who ran away from the First Order, is somehow the one that needs to be told how bad war really is.

Really?

[angst-is-love-angst-is-life]

Oh wow, Rey really went from hating Kylo to confiding in him in one single freaking scene

[sjbattleangel]

Special thanks to @agramuglia for inspiring this awful joke.

Everyone: "Steven Universe/She-Ra/Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend Of Korra/Star Wars: The Last Jedi/The Last Of Us/The Last Of Us Part II/The MCU/G. Willow Wilson's Ms. Marvel run/Gail Simone's Birds Of Prey run/The Dark Crystal: Age Of Resistance/The Persona games/The Sandman/X-Men/The Simpsons/Everything by Dan Slott/Everything by Tom Taylor/Everything by Jason Aaron/Everything by Donny Cates/Everything by Brian Michael Bendis/Everything by Devin Grayson/Everything by Jonathan Hickman/Everything by Scott Snyder/Everything by James Tynion IV/Everything by Joshua Williamson, etc are anti-intellectual, regressive, pro-status quo, far-right Trojan Horses pretending to be "diverse and progressive" just so they can take advantage of naïve leftists."

Me: "No. That's Velma".

[burn-4u]

Lol why do tlj stans keep trying to compare their movie to andor. Andor is the Star Wars equivalent of better call Saul and tlj is a joss whedon movie.

[bluntblade]

I tend to talk in the abstract about how TLJ's style would've suited the Ahsoka show so much better than trying to ape Rogue One without the scale (remember when Rogue One's look was kind of a bold experiment for the franchise, chosen for a film that wasn't about the space wizards, instead of a default?) but then I'll rewatch it or spy some GIFs and oh man, how I wish the Ahsoka show was shot like this.

Because besides the fact that it's just beautiful (the delicacy of the lighting in the voidbound scenes is a particular favourite for me) there's heaps of great visual storytelling, and a mix of eeriness and soulful expressiveness which I think would've worked wonders for the weary, wounded protagonists of the show. Not to mention the way Ahch-To is treated as a genuinely mystical place, while also feeling wild and rugged.

And of course, there's the lovely kineticism to the action (which obviously Abrams did too, but I think Johnson, like Gareth Edwards, does with more purpose). Those racing dolly shots in the throne room, bring 'em back Star Wars!

[crystalklk]

remember when people were being such haters for tlj that they were shitting on knives out for having the same director

[artist-issues]

This is an admirable point to try to make about the Sequel Trilogy, but it doesn't hold up in-context, at all. But Star Wars fans don't tend to look at the context of the story. They don’t tend to look at the new story like it's a story, with character set-up and follow-through. They tend to look at it like it's a Star Wars Movie.

Rey caring about whether or not her parents were someone significant happened as a natural progression of her obsession with them after The Forxe Awakens. Literally, after the force awakens in her, she transfers that new facet of her life onto the one all-consuming character motivation she has: to be somebody to someone. It just took new shape because The Force was suddenly in her life in a major way. But it was very in-character, and consistent.

She always wanted to be someone--to her parents--which you can see at the beginning of The Force Awakens when she looks very uncomfortable at the idea of turning into a solitary old woman, alone and nobody on Jakkuu. So yeah, she wants to "be somebody--" but just "somebody who is loved." And the idea of her parents is her comfort-fantasy, so when she's jettisoned into this galaxy-arena of legendary dynastic force-weilders, of course she hopes her parents will become the new frame for all of that. She’s just shifting her motivation to match her new environment. You know. Like a character.

Finn and Rose don't think del Toro's character is a "rogue with a heart of gold." They find him in a cell, after already associating the Casino Proprietors to be shorthand for the First Order--so they naturally assume he got there by leaning away from the First Order. Plus, he (with BB-8) saved them from being recaptured. And despite his speech, they did pay him. They thought no more than "here's a guy who's certainly crossed the First Order before, and he knows how to get us in, and we literally have no other plan or time to make a new one, and we paid him, so this is our only option."

Are they upset when he betrayed them? Yeah. But if you've been allies in a life-or-death situation for any length of time, and they've not only helped you out before but also gave you back your special necklace apparently out of kindness, then they get you killed at the last second? And you have a chance to express your anger about that? You're gonna do it. It would be unnatural for you, as a character, not to express that anger. Doesn't mean you've been 100% CONVINCED the whole time that he "had a heart of a gold all along" and this was such a shock to you.

Rose is Pre-established in the movie to tend toward idealism, and hero-worship. Finn has only been a part of the Resistance for a tiny bit of time, and used to be a Stormtrooper--she has every reason to distrust him OR trust him--and we're shown that she chooses trust. She's all starry-eyed and hero-worshipping--until he insinuates that he's jumping ship. (Because she's not stupid, even if her default setting is initially "trust, have faith in the good.") And then even after she tazes him, and he admits to wanting to run away, even though that's a direct insult to her sister's fresh sacrifice, she still chooses to work with him. Knowing that he's kind of untrustworthy, she chooses to give him a chance anyway. And she's the one that shows the little kid the Resistance Ring, in the slave stalls, with no reason to believe that it will mean anything to him. Just like she's the kind of character to believe DJ will be true to his word.

That's the kind of character she is, right from the get-go. Its you who expected DJ to be a "rogue with a heart of gold" trope, because you've seen Star Wars movies. Rose just happens to be written to also lean toward trust (within reason) rather than mistrust, even if a rogue. What's your excuse? You're a "Star Wars fan."

Same thing with Rey's "training." At no point does Rey describe what she wants as specific "training--" she describes what she wants in a very in-character way. Firstly, she wants Luke to come back (oh, just like her obsession with her ideal parental figures "coming back") and save the day. When he won't, and asks why they sent her to find him, she reluctantly explains that she needs someone to "show [her] her place in all of this." Vague. Reluctant. Far from asking for a training montage. She doesn't want to save the day, she wants to be important (read: "loved") by someone, and she wants LUKE to save the day. That's always her character. She doesn't want to be the hero, she just wants to be loved and belong somewhere, to someone. It's you that heard her say "show me my place in all this" and translated it to "give me a training montage," devoid of build-up and context. Because you're a watcher of Star Wars movies.

Same thing with Poe. The filmmaker very clearly sets up why he shouldn't get to know the plan: he has a disregard for human life, and a bit of a hero complex, and he doesn't look at the "big picture." Leia might have given him grace and told him of the plan because she knows he has potential--but Leia got knocked unconscious, and her second-in-command did the best she could with what she knew: a hothead who disobeys direct orders and gets people killed and is punished for it by her wise friend comes around demanding to know the plan, right after being demoted, in a life-or-death situation? She's not going to tell him the plan. It would not make sense for her to tell him the plan, in the movie you're watching. Not if she's going to behave in-character. In fact, the only way Holdo could've known enough to make the decision to give Poe sensitive information in good faith would be if...she somehow knew that he was the rough-around-the-edges but ultimately-trustworthy protagonist of a Star Wars movie.

See, it sounds good to say that "they knew they were in a Star Wars movie, that's why they act 'inconsistently!'" Sounds good. Until you look to see if they're actually inconsistent--and they're not. (Not in TFA or TLJ, I disregard ROS but that's another post.)

When you watch the story like it's a story, you see that the filmmakers set it all up beautifully. It's a natural follow-through of each character you mentioned to do what they did in TLJ. Especially in those scenarios, which were cleverly written by moviemakers who knew what you, the audience (not the characters) would expect to see. You're just proving that you're the one making much out of the fact that they're "a protagonist in a Star Wars movie."

Star Wars fans expected TLJ and TFA to follow some specific patterns, or fulfill specific wishes commonly associated with Star Wars. When the ends of the story didn't follow/fulfill those, they totally missed the means used to get there.

In any other story, you couldn't just say "Rey defeated Kylo Ren with no problem and no training." You'd notice that the fight is set up with specific context like:

Rey has fought off competitors for scraps and for survival every day of her life on a desert planet; she might not have formal training in a specific art, but she knows plenty about using a stick to fight for her life.

Kylo Ren is not trying to kill her. He is actively trying to convince her to join him; he's not even interested in maiming her, just overpowering and intimidating her.

Even if he was trying to kill her, he'd have a hard time of it: he is injured from a blaster bolt shot, which we saw blast away Stormtroopers in full gear earlier in the same story; so if we were watching this in good faith like any other story, we’d remember how much damage it can do and deduce how much weaker it’s making Kylo Ren.

He is trying to use the Dark Side of the Force--which is literally only powerful when you're enraged and convinced of your actions--but he is at his least convinced of his own actions. He already knows Rey is strong in the Force, so he’s seeing her as an unpredictable threat instead of the opponents hes used to dominating. Why do you think he knocked her out first?

He also just killed his father, which is supposed to make him feel stronger and freer, but CLEARLY IT IS NOT, so his emotions aren't working for him in the Force: they're working against him because they're unsteady. He’s confused; the rite he was told would make him stronger is emotionally crippling him. Not a great time to need steady emotions for a battle.

In the meantime, Rey has just recently opened herself up to the Force despite all her reluctance and holding it back, and it turned out really well. And she's defending the one person who ever came back for her, showed her that she was important, and acted like she was special to him--Finn. So in contrast to Kylo Ren, she gets to use her survivalist stick-wielding experience and her emotions are channeled and her faith is finally experiencing its first and best burst in emotional confidence. While he's having trouble getting his emotions to channel the Force because of the in-character reaction to the established situation, she is having the least trouble getting her emotions to channel the Force, for the first time in the whole movie!

Anyone who watches this story never having seen a Star Wars movie before will see that everything is set up carefully, then followed-through carefully (until ROS, which we don't talk about.) But if you watch it as a Star Wars Fan? You're not taking in the details and the context and the foreshadowing. You're looking for fulfilled tropes. You're not listening to what the characters are saying and watching their facial expressions. You're listening to hear the keywords and phrases you've learned from other movies.

You're not watching a movie. You're watching a Test of Star Wars Formula Adherence...and then giving the filmmakers a bad grade, according to your own standard. And it’s a rigged standard. It’s not the same standard used for all stories.

(P.S. @frasier-crane-style and anyone who bothered reading all this: if it feels tedious and aggravating to read through a list of all the things that the characters did in the Sequel movies and have them explained to you, this is why; they’re obvious. You already knew them. They were clear in the movie. They were good explanations for what was going on; they just weren’t the explanations you were looking for, so you rejected them.)

Why The Last Jedi doesn't work as subversion is that it continuously requires the characters to act like they KNOW they're characters in Star Wars and not LIVING the Star Wars.

I'll give you an example. Rey. In TFA, her parents are simply missing and she's waiting for them to come back. In TLJ, she suddenly thinks they're an important secret for Kylo to reveal to her because she's pathologically suppressed the truth that they're drunks who sold her for alcohol money (or, you know, blue milk money, whatever).

But why would she ever think that she had an important family or heritage unless she knew she was the protagonist of a space epic and having an important family or heritage is something that happens to those?

Or DJ. The Benecio del Toro character is supposed to be a subversion of the rogue with a heart of gold trope. But why would Finn and Bangs ever think he's a rogue with a heart of gold that's implicitly trustworthy? They find him in a prison cell and have no reason to think he has any loyalty to the Resistance--he even gives a speech about how he considers the First Order and the Resistance to be equally bad!

In ANH, both Luke and Obi-Wan treated Han like exactly what he was, a mercenary, who had to be cajoled into helping out until finally he showed his true colors by attacking the Death Star. They didn't know they were characters going through a story arc. The Sequel Trilogy characters act like they do, until Rian Johnson pranks them by twisting the story arc they had no reason to think they were participating in.

And the entire Luke storyline is a subversion of the entire idea of mentorship. Luke doesn't teach Rey anything. She doesn't need to be taught anything. It's unclear why she even thinks she does, given that she already beat down Kylo Ren with ease, but, again, character in a story. She thinks she needs a training montage, Rian says "she doesn't get a training montage!", and scene.

It's all very meta and post-modern and taken at face value, it doesn't make any sense once you ask obvious questions like "Why shouldn't Poe know that there is a plan to save the fleet?" Defenders of TLJ dismiss those obvious questions because they see them as unimportant next to the post-modern gamesmanship the movie is really concerned with, but Star Wars doesn't work like a Scream movie, where the characters are largely obsessed with horror movies and then, ironically, placed inside a horror movie.

That's a kind of cynicism that doesn't really work for Star Wars; you can't do a sincere narrative about the triumph of good over evil when the characters are mostly convinced there's no big difference between Good or Evil winning.

To go back to ANH, Obi-Wan is emphatic about how wonderful the Jedi were, how tragic it was that they were wiped out, how awful it is to live under the Empire, and how important it is to fight to restore the Republic. That's the baseline of sincerity that this kind of primordial mythmaking needs to work.

With TLJ, most every character on both sides are cynical, foolish, corrupt, power-tripping, shrill, pompous... most of all, incompetent. It seems less like an epic battle between the noble and the venal--more like two competing cliques of sitcom characters, only one of them is inexplicably Nazi-themed. You're left pretty much adrift, with no characters to sympathize with and no conflicts to become invested in, just visuals and 'themes'.

But children can't get invested in themes or subversion. Neither can most people. It's the province of the elitist to care about subtext over story--the sick doldrums of modern art--and Star Wars isn't for them. It's for the people.